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Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture

Timonator348 Junior Member   Join Date: April 12, 2011 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

Private Interpretation of Scripture To me it seems obvious to me that we need guidance in correctly interpreting Scripture Acts 8:30-31 (Douay Rheims) 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com 2 Peter 1:20 (Douay Rheims) 20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com but a Protestant friend keeps arguing with me that true Christians that belong to the universal invisible catholic church interpret Scripture correctly individually as the Spirit is working within them. He usually cites 1 Corinthians 2, 2 Corinthians 3 & Psalms 119 in support of this position as well as claiming the Bible is fully self claiming itself as inspired for the 66 books he holds as Scripture. I haven't had much luck convincing him otherwise with historical facts about ecumenical councils or Scripture citations. Anyone have any suggestions from a similar situation? Last edited by Timonator348; Apr 15, '11 at 6:57 am. Reason: Bible verses correction

#2     Apr 15, '11, 7:17 am

TMC Regular Member   Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 3,962

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by Timonator348 To me it seems obvious to me that we need guidance in correctly interpreting Scripture Acts 8:30-31 (Douay Rheims) 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? 31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com 2 Peter 1:20 (Douay Rheims) 20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com but a Protestant friend keeps arguing with me that true Christians that belong to the universal invisible catholic church interpret Scripture correctly individually as the Spirit is working within them. He usually cites 1 Corinthians 2, 2 Corinthians 3 & Psalms 119 in support of this position as well as claiming the Bible is fully self claiming itself as inspired for the 66 books he holds as Scripture. I haven't had much luck convincing him otherwise with historical facts about ecumenical councils or Scripture citations. Anyone have any suggestions from a similar situation? Sure individuals can interpret the bible correctly individually, but how can your friend assert that that always do, or even mostly do, given that they come up with such widely varying interpretations? __________________ Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4

#3     Apr 15, '11, 7:24 am

Soldier Of God Regular Member Prayer Warrior   Join Date: December 10, 2010 Location: Maple, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,657 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture It would seem that individual interpretations of the bible have helped spawn over 34,000 distinct Protestant denominations in 238 countries. Can they all possibly be correct? Obviously not. I do not think Christ had this in mind when he established the Church. __________________ "Most men seem to live according to sense rather than reason." ̶ Saint Thomas Aquinas

#4     Apr 15, '11, 7:26 am

ctkrcia Junior Member   Join Date: July 6, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 156 Religion: Catholic

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Hmmmmm... Why is there then such disagreement between Christians on proper interpretations of scripture? Why is there over 40,000 different Christian denominations? If the Holy Spirit were guiding everyone, would He really guide us to different conclusions that would pit brother against brother? What lesson is to be learned from that?

#5     Apr 15, '11, 7:28 am

Bookcat Forum Master   Join Date: January 14, 2009 Posts: 15,604 Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture (Not addressing his misunderstanding of the nature of the Church or of the Bible) A Christian in full communion with the Catholic Church...or Christian not in full communion...yes can understand a passage of scripture correctly..and yes they can be guided by the Holy Spirit in doing so...this is true. However such an individual is not "protected from error" in so doing..and can get things wrong (heck otherwise everyone would agree always on scripture). and of course the Sacred Scriptures are meant to be read within the Church... __________________ VIVAS IN DEO IHCOY XPICTOY

#6     Apr 15, '11, 7:33 am

TMC Regular Member   Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 3,962

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by Bookcat (Not addressing his misunderstanding of the nature of the Church or of the Bible) A Christian in full communion with the Catholic Church...or Christian not in full communion...yes can understand a passage of scripture correctly..and yes they can be guided by the Holy Spirit in doing so...this is true. However such an individual is not "protected from error" in so doing..and can get things wrong (heck otherwise everyone would agree always on scripture). and of course the Sacred Scriptures are meant to be read within the Church... Not disagreeing with you, but I would point out that a Protestant would say that they are reading "within the Church" but they have a very different view of what "within the Church" means. So for the purpose of trying to convince Protestants, I would emphasis your first point, that it is possible for individuals to be guided to a correct interpretation, but they can't always be or they would all agree (and they clearly don't). __________________ Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4

#7     Apr 15, '11, 8:42 am

PLeeD Junior Member   Join Date: July 21, 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 340 Religion: Protestant

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture The Catholic church does not provide explicit and detailed explanations of the correct understanding for the entire bible. My understanding is that there are only a few verses that have been specifically explained. First, which verses are they, and where are can we find the explanations? A link would be great. Second, what is a person to do with all the rest of scripture for which the Catholic church does not give a precise explanation for understanding?

#8     Apr 15, '11, 8:53 am

TMC Regular Member   Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 3,962

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by PLeeD The Catholic church does not provide explicit and detailed explanations of the correct understanding for the entire bible. My understanding is that there are only a few verses that have been specifically explained. First, which verses are they, and where are can we find the explanations? A link would be great. Second, what is a person to do with all the rest of scripture for which the Catholic church does not give a precise explanation for understanding? I, for one, am not sure that the Church has given a definitive explanation of any particular passage of Scripture. As to what to do with the rest of Scipture? Read it, of course. The Church's teaching and Tradition give us guidance on how to interpret Scripture. In other words, the catechism and other teachings of the Church shed light on the Truth in a way that helps Catholics to interpret and frame Scripture. But the Church does not give Catholics the kind of lock-step binding instruction about Scripture that many Protestants think it does. In many ways, the way Catholics look at Scripture is not very different than the way other non-fundamental Christians read Scripture, and is much freer than the way most fundamentalists read Scripture. __________________ Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4

#9     Apr 15, '11, 8:57 am

beth40n2 Regular Member Greeter Prayer Warrior   Join Date: June 1, 2010 Location: South Dakota, USA Posts: 1,233 Religion: Roman Catholic, former Pentecostal and United Methodist

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture In the back of the Catechism there is a section called "Index of Citations" which lists all the scriptures that are referred to in the Catechism. It also references quotes by Popes and saints. The section on scriptures referrenced in the Catechism is quite extensive. __________________ Veni Ceator Spiritus "Come Holy Spirit" RCIA and Converts http://forums.catholic.com/group.php?groupid=1487 For people interested in joining the Catholic Church, for anyone with questions about the faith, and for converts to share what they have gone through in their conversion process.

#10     Apr 15, '11, 9:01 am

TMC Regular Member   Join Date: October 15, 2007 Posts: 3,962

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by TMC I, for one, am not sure that the Church has given a definitive explanation of any particular passage of Scripture. As to what to do with the rest of Scipture? Read it, of course. The Church's teaching and Tradition give us guidance on how to interpret Scripture. In other words, the catechism and other teachings of the Church shed light on the Truth in a way that helps Catholics to interpret and frame Scripture. But the Church does not give Catholics the kind of lock-step binding instruction about Scripture that many Protestants think it does. In many ways, the way Catholics look at Scripture is not very different than the way other non-fundamental Christians read Scripture, and is much freer than the way most fundamentalists read Scripture. Sorry to reply to myself, but in case that is not very clear, here is an example. The Church teaches that Mary was ever-virgin. So Catholics keep that in mind when interpreting the passages of the Gospels that refer to relatives of Jesus. Obviously, if Catholics follow the Church on this teaching, they will be compelled to interpret those Scriptures in a way that allows for the perpetual virginity of Mary. But the Church does not mandate that Catholics believe that those referred to in some translations as "brethern" of the Lord are Joseph's children from a previous marriage (although many do) or that they are cousins (which many others believe) or whatever. I mention this particular example as it is the most restrictive interpretation point that comes to my mind. Even here, the teaching of the Church on Mary frames the interpretation of those passages, but does not force a lock-step view of every word. In most other areas, Catholics have far more "room", but Catholics are asked to intepret Scripture in a way that is consistent with the teachings of the Church. __________________ Who are you to pass judgment on someone else's servant? Romans 14:4

#11     Apr 15, '11, 9:16 am

MarkBrown Regular Member   Join Date: January 22, 2008 Location: Exiled to Florida Posts: 527 Religion: Catholic-Anglican (still wet and the water was not cold)

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Just as we need direction (teaching) in math, science, reading, morality etc, we need direction (teaching) in scripture. While most readily accept the former, most want to "go it alone" in the latter. As to interpretations, very seldom does one interpret without guidance. Calvinist interpret scripture through the teachings of Calvin. The fundamentalist missionary sitting in my living room last night, through the teachings of Penscola Baptist Institutes anti catholic leader Peter Ruckman. Catholics through the Church and rely on 2000 years of teaching. Your friend is missing something very obvious. St Paul wrote to the Church in Corinth teaching them about scripture, how to read it, understand it etc. He writes in chapter 1:10-18 they were keeping to what he taught them in regards to Christ, scripture etc. He takes them to task for seperating into groups. (I guess the missionary was right, protestants have been around for a long time) I agree it is possible for someone to stumble upon the truth or correct interpretation of scripture, just as it is possible for someone to stumble upon basic math equations solutions. The problem is how much will be in error until that point. St Paul compares this early church/parish/body to babes who are fed milk. The picture is of someone or group being lead to maturity as a parent leads a child. Paul is helping the Corinthians understand scripture and Christ and God. He did not turn them loose and say figure it out. Just like I did not give my 15 year old a book on driving, the keys to the car and show her the road and tell her to figure it out the Holy Spirit will guide you. Her interpretation of traffic laws, codes, signs etc in this process would be "different" from the authorities view. She may argue she knows and I am wrong and maybe even the authority is wrong because the spirit revealed it to her. All she has to go on is her limited understanding, knowledge and experience. If we reject this method of drivers training, why do we or some think this is ok for theology? Personal interpretation comes down to a simple thing. What Satan said in Gen 3:14. Since then we have wanted or believed we can be like God. If we have a problem with God, having a problem with any authority is a given. We as humans dislike being told what to do. Especially in the States, our history and culture is a rebellious culture to authority. Sometimes a good thing, but not all the time. The first protestants who came here were nonconformists or puritans who thought there way was better. Follow on protestants learned that the hard way. And catholics....ouch. As a protestant, I have come to understand why so many discount or dislike the Pope. They want his job. As my 12 year old and I discussed recently, we all have a Pope. Either he is in Rome or he sits in our living room. Fr. Mark

#12     Apr 15, '11, 2:38 pm

Timonator348 Junior Member   Join Date: April 12, 2011 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Thanks for all the great responses! It's good to hear some people who agree with me. I think Protestants, especially in America have a hard time differentiating between their civil, earthly representative form of government and the Kingdom of Heaven. With Christ being the king of kings we are his subjects and it is not a democracy.

#13     Apr 15, '11, 3:53 pm

mackbrislawn Regular Member   Join Date: December 17, 2007 Posts: 1,080 Religion: Catholic

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture For those who claim that the Holy Spirit guides them to understanding scripture, I ask, then, why do you need scripture? If you rely on something external to scripture, like the Holy Spirit, it is not scripture that you are learning from, but the external thing, the Holy Spirit! Therefore, scripture itself is superfluous, and all that is needed is the Holy Spirit.

#14     Apr 15, '11, 10:34 pm

stevekehl Banned   Join Date: April 9, 2011 Location: Mount Vernon, Ohio Posts: 636 Religion: Protestant, Church of Christ

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture I think there are some misconceptions about Protestants. First of all, we don't run around willy-nilly throwing out scriptural interpretations like fortune cookies. Second, as Paul instructed, the more mature members of the congregation do mentor younger Christians, teaching through Sunday School and Bible study. Third, starting up your own church is hardly difficult and most legitimate Protestant churches agree on more doctrine than they disagree (I must admit, it does pain me to see so much division among the family) Last, there is a rule used that says scripture must interpret scripture, in other words no verse stands alone. Interpreting scripture must be done in the context of the verses surrounding it, the theme of that section of the book, and must be supported by scripture in other books of the Bible. While Protestants do believe in individual interpretation, it is taken very seriously. As Paul wrote in Phillipians, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling", but also cross reference and check context. God Bless

#15     Apr 16, '11, 7:00 am

mackbrislawn Regular Member   Join Date: December 17, 2007 Posts: 1,080 Religion: Catholic

Re: Private Interpretation of Scripture Quote: Originally Posted by stevekehl I think there are some misconceptions about Protestants. First of all, we don't run around willy-nilly throwing out scriptural interpretations like fortune cookies. Second, as Paul instructed, the more mature members of the congregation do mentor younger Christians, teaching through Sunday School and Bible study. Third, starting up your own church is hardly difficult and most legitimate Protestant churches agree on more doctrine than they disagree (I must admit, it does pain me to see so much division among the family) Last, there is a rule used that says scripture must interpret scripture, in other words no verse stands alone. Interpreting scripture must be done in the context of the verses surrounding it, the theme of that section of the book, and must be supported by scripture in other books of the Bible. While Protestants do believe in individual interpretation, it is taken very seriously. As Paul wrote in Phillipians, "work out your salvation with fear and trembling", but also cross reference and check context. God Bless The above is all true of course. The trouble, though, is that very principle of private interpretation does allow for individuals to develop their own intepretations independently of any congregation. Strong willed individuals who do this can convince others of their teachings and they follow him resulting in a new denomination. Yes, scripture must interpet scripture, and the context of the verses must be considered. Now, to extend this principle a little bit, a Catholic will say that scripture itself must be interpreted in context, and that context is Tradition. Just like a bible verse must be interpeted within the context of the surrounding verses, and similar subjects elsewhere in scripture, the bible itself must be interpreted within the context in which it was formed. If you rip a verse out of context, you will misunderstand it, and likewise, if you rip the bible out of its context, you will misunderstand it. The Bible does not stand alone. This is what Catholics think Protestants have done, they have ripped the bible out of its context, taken it alone, and hence misunderstand it. "'Scripture interprets scripture." A broader way to say it would be "God's word inteprets God's word." In this case God's word includes Tradition as well. So, Tradition interptets scripture, from a Catholic point of view. This Tradition is believed to have come from the apostles and early Christians themselves. When you interpret scripture, you aren't doing it just for yourself, but for everybody else too, since the message of scripture is for all. That's a huge responsibility, and dangerous as well, because Peter says that the ignorant twist scriptures to their own destruction.